I met Mahmoud in 2019 on my Encounter trip.  You can read about the trip starting with this blog post and continue forward.   It was great to see Mahmoud and we hugged when we saw each other.  He asked us to sit as we caught up on our families, work, and life changes.  This of course brought up the war which has impacted him both economically and in terms of how safe he feels for his family.  It was another connection point as I have those same feelings as a Jew in the United States. 

Mahmoud is incredibly smart.  The conversation was deep and not stuck on talking points or things that often impede real conversation.  It was refreshing to have somebody to talk with about what is happening without the incitement of specific words.

We didn’t use words like Genocide.  We both agreed that lots of people were dying, and we wanted that to stop.   We didn’t use words like forced famine.  We agreed that not enough food was getting to the people, and they were hungry.  He doesn’t believe enough food is getting in even if it wasn’t being stolen and sold.  He said there were fewer trucks going in now than before the war.  From what I understood that wasn’t accurate but I didn’t have the facts in front of me so chose not to dispute that point and just agree that people were hungry.  We agreed that the Hamas attacks on October 7 were unacceptable. We agreed that Hamas was evil.  We agreed that Hamas must be removed and cannot continue to exist in power. The murders, rapes, burning of bodies, and other actions were evil and unacceptable.  He shared that he and his friends were horrified when they learned of the attack.  We agreed that taking the civilian hostages was unacceptable and he shared that his hope was that they would be released the very next day.  He also said that he felt the taking of soldiers was different as this was an act of war by Hamas and taking military personnel for future prisoner swaps was ok.  While I understand his position on this, I struggle with it because of how Hamas treats prisoners. 

We talked about Zionism.  When we met in 2019, he made the comment that, “If Zionism means the Jews have a right to the land and we do as well, then I am ok with Zionism.”  When I said that the definition of Zionism is that the Jews have a right to a homeland and says nothing about anybody else, he commented that too many people disagree with me.  There are people who believe all of historical Israel belongs to the Jews and not only should we have the West Bank/Judea and Samaria but also Jordan and more.  That Greater Israel should be ours.  Just like there are Palestinians who believe there should be no Jewish state at all.  They believe the entire land should be Palestinian.  We can’t listen to the extremes and that’s where we are at the current time.  The media only covers the extremes.  That is what sells.  That’s what gets ratings and advertisers. 

We talked about the campus protests.  He wasn’t aware of the number of outside agitators that were involved with them.  As we discussed it, he commented that the fascists and communists always do that.  This is their pattern throughout history, so it isn’t a surprise.  I shared that in my opinion they were stealing his story and his pain for their own agenda which had nothing to do with Palestinians.  It was about anarchy and changing the United States government.   He agreed.

We discussed how the status quo in the relationship between the Israelis and Palestinians was not something that could continue long term.  When I participated in the Encounter trip, one thing that was clear to me was that the status quo couldn’t continue.  We agree on that.  From the day I met him, Mahmoud has been a proponent of a one state solution.  For him this doesn’t mean someplace that is free of Jews.  It is his position that Israel already controls the entire area and that it is already one state in which some of the people who live there get treated differently.  The challenge of a one state solution is that it would mean that Israel would no longer be a Jewish state.  That’s the cost of peace in a one state solution.  Unfortunately, I agree with him that the cost of a one state solution is the loss of Israel as a Jewish state.  I chose not to tell him that this would be unacceptable to the world Jewish community as the entire purpose of having a state of Israel is to have a Jewish state.  It is why I believe a one state solution will never occur.  The Palestinians would have to agree to leave the land and they are not going to do that.

He was pessimistic about any chance of a two-state solution working.  He made the point that Gaza was effectively a two-state solution. We see how that worked out.  I agree with him.  The challenge of a two-state solution is that the Palestinian leaders and people need to not just accept that Israel exists as a Jewish state but also there will be travel limitations and challenges because there are two countries with sovereign boundaries.  This also doesn’t even consider the trust factor needed.  The current trust factor is at best zero right now.  When I made the comment that it might take ten (10) years to get to a real two-state solution he shook his head and told me that was likely too long.  He said if it is going to take 10 years, it is dead.  I don’t agree with him here and we spent a lot of time talking about leadership. 

For those who have been reading my blog, you know how critical I have been about our lack of leadership.  This lack of leadership exists in the Jewish community, in America, in Europe and certainly in Israel and with the Palestinians.  The Palestinian Authority President Abbas was elected to a 4-year term in 2005.  There have not been elections since.  He is in year 20 of a 5-year term.  The world stays silent and supports him.  Prime Minister Netanyahu has been in power longer than any other Israeli Prime Minister.  While he has been in and out of power due to free elections, there is a reason why many countries have term limits for these and other positions.  A new voice is needed.  New leadership.

Both Mahmoud and I expressed our concerns about future leadership.  Who might it be?  Mahmoud is concerned Israel will elect Ben-Gvir, Smoltrich, or somebody on the far right like them.  I don’t share those same concerns as the Israeli people are not far right like them.  They are given a far too large platform because Netanyahu needs them to remain in power.  I am concerned that the leadership that will follow Abbas is going to be Hamas or Hamas like.  Somebody who will not lead towards peace but will lead back to the days of the intifadas and violence.  Both of us are stunned that in the United States, with well over 300 million people, these are the two candidates we have for President.  Because of their age, it is unlikely that either of them will be running in 2028 (one won’t be eligible per our constitution) so perhaps we can see some change in the US in four years but no matter who wins, it will be a very challenging four years.  With all this negativity about leadership, Mahmoud wanted to talk more about the people rather than leadership. 

His concern is that leaders are elected by the people.  His concern is that the anger and rage at Hamas is spilling over to the Palestinian people and will make things worse.  There are people who say, “just bomb them all” or “flatten Gaza and kill them all” or “they are all terrorists”.  I shared with him that as I was in Kfar Aza and at the Nova site, I felt rage.  I didn’t share that at Kfar Aza, as each bomb exploded in Jabaliyah, I felt better, as not only does that really bother me that I felt that way but also it would have been counterproductive to our conversation.  He isn’t wrong.  Israel is not the same country as it was on October 6.  The people of Israel are not the same.  The events of October 7 have altered the people and the country.  I don’t know where it is going to end up.  I told him I remain hopeful that when the war ends, and the war will end at some point, I am hopeful that the Israeli people can heal and look to a future where there can be peace and something like October 7 will never happen again.  He was much more pessimistic and really fears that the long-term impact on the Israeli people will be to radicalize them further and further to the right.  I shared my hope that after the war, it would bring them back towards the center due to the desire to live life. 

We also spent time talking about how important it is for Jews and Palestinians to talk the way we were.  To respect each other and share ideas, not ideology. To work towards finding solutions, not arguing and fighting for the sake of arguing and fighting.  He shared that while some Israelis do some to talk with him, he has no platform in Israel to do this.  Coming to the United States to talk to Israelis and Jewish communities isn’t the answer either.  We need more dialogue.  We need more discussion.  This brought me back to my points about leadership and how they can’t and won’t do this.  Perhaps after the war ends and Bibi is replaced and in the next few years when it is likely that Abbas will die, we will have a chance for new leadership that is willing to engage with each other and really work for the benefit of their people rather than to remain in power.  Maybe I am overly optimistic.  Maybe I am being too positive and too hopeful.  I don’t see another way to live.

As we wrapped up our 90-minute conversation, there is much to think about and much to contemplate.  We hugged goodbye and made plans to get together on one of my future trips to Israel.  Because of the time and the heat, we chose to take a cab back instead of walking.  Matthew and I began to talk a little about the experience, but those conversations will happen back in the US over a coffee or twenty. 

I appreciate Mahmoud for giving his time.  For sharing his opinions and concerns.  For listening to both Matthew and my comments, concerns, and opinions.  For being open to a real discussion and conversation.  For looking to the future and not being stuck in the past.  As we said during the conversation, we can’t change the past, but we can change the future.  I look forward to future conversations with Mahmoud and to a future where there is peace. To a time when the Palestinians can live in peace with their neighbor Israel.  When the thought of another October 7^th isn’t on everybody’s minds. 

My friendship with Mahmoud and a number of other Palestinians living in East Jerusalem and the West Bank/Judea and Samaria (two names for the same place) are examples that we can live together. We can have difference and get beyond them and live together. It gives me hope that when we finally get new leadership who truly cares about a different future, we might be able to have peace.